Within Hearing
Why the pilots changed Grusch's hearing
Military pilot testimony gave the hearing a serious aviation-safety frame, but it did not verify Grusch's crash-retrieval allegations.
On this page
- How Graves and Fravor broadened the hearing
- Direct sightings versus hidden programme claims
- The risk of borrowing credibility across different evidence types
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Introduction
The presence of former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor at the July 2023 House Oversight hearing was one of the main reasons David Grusch’s testimony received broader public attention and appeared more credible to many viewers. Graves and Fravor were not there to confirm Grusch’s claims about secret crash-retrieval programmes or recovered non-human technology. Instead, they brought a different kind of evidence: first-hand accounts of unusual aerial encounters during military service. Their testimony helped frame the hearing as a national-security and aviation-safety issue rather than solely a whistleblower allegation about hidden government programmes. That distinction matters when assessing Grusch’s credibility, because the pilots strengthened the seriousness of the hearing without directly validating his most controversial claims. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00…
The result was a mixed credibility effect. The hearing presented three witnesses with very different evidential foundations. Graves and Fravor described experiences they said they personally observed. Grusch described information he said he gathered from officials and sources during intelligence work. The public often treated these testimonies as part of a single story, but they rested on different kinds of evidence and should be evaluated separately. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00… Oversight Committee [Time]time.comTestimony by former Air Force Major David Grusch claimed the U.S. military has been recovering and reverse-engineering extraterrestrial m…
How Graves and Fravor broadened the hearing
One reason the hearing gained unusual visibility was that Graves and Fravor were already known outside dedicated UFO circles. Both had publicly discussed military UAP encounters before the hearing, and both were associated with incidents that had attracted Pentagon attention and media coverage.
Fravor is best known for the 2004 USS Nimitz “Tic Tac” encounter, in which he and other personnel reported observing an unusual object during a training exercise off the California coast. Graves became associated with reports from Navy aviators operating off the US east coast who described repeated encounters with unidentified objects in training airspace. By 2023, these cases had already been discussed in major media outlets and in government reviews of UAP reporting. CBS News [Sky at Night Magazine]skyatnightmagazine.comSky at Night MagazineWhat we learned from the UFO Congress hearing1 Aug 2023 — Two of the witnesses at the hearing, David Fravor and Ryan…
At the hearing, Graves focused heavily on flight safety and reporting problems. He argued that military and commercial pilots needed a better system for reporting unusual aerial encounters without fear of professional stigma. Fravor focused on what he said he personally witnessed during the Nimitz incident and on the apparent performance characteristics of the object he encountered. [Vanity Fair]vanityfair.comThe hearing featured testimonies from former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor, as well as whistleblower and former intelligence o… [House Oversight Committee]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00…
This mattered for Grusch because it changed the atmosphere of the hearing. Instead of a single witness alleging a hidden conspiracy, Congress presented:
- A former intelligence officer alleging secret programmes and concealment.
- A former Navy commander describing a direct aerial encounter.
- A former Navy pilot discussing recurring operational sightings and reporting barriers.
Together, this created a broader narrative that UAP reports were being taken seriously by military personnel and lawmakers. Even viewers who were sceptical of Grusch’s claims could see that concerns about unexplained aerial incidents extended beyond one whistleblower. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00… Oversight Committee [Space]space.comus hiding evidence alien intelligence ufo whistleblower claimsSpaceUS hiding evidence of UFOs, alien intellligence…26 Jul 2023 — Three key witnesses testified at the hearing: Ryan Graves and Davi…
Direct sightings versus hidden programme claims
The strongest distinction in the hearing was the difference between what the pilots claimed and what Grusch claimed.
Fravor’s testimony concerned an event he said he personally observed. Whether one accepts his interpretation or not, the core claim is straightforward: he reported seeing an unusual object during a military operation. The same basic principle applies to Graves, whose testimony centred on pilot observations, sensor reports and safety concerns involving objects encountered in training areas. [CBS News]cbsnews.comCBS NewsThe story behind the "Tic Tac" UFO sighting by Navy pilots…26 Jul 2023 — A retired Navy fighter pilot testified about his expe… [The American Legion]legion.orgThe American Legion'UAP are in our airspace': Former military personnel warn…27 Jul 2023 — Ryan Graves, a former Navy F-18 pilot, and…
Grusch’s allegations were different. His most dramatic claims involved alleged crash-retrieval programmes, reverse-engineering efforts and recovered non-human materials. He repeatedly indicated that these claims came from interviews, briefings and information provided by other officials rather than from his own direct observation of recovered craft. During the hearing he acknowledged that much of his testimony relied on information supplied by sources he considered credible. [Vanity Fair]vanityfair.comThe hearing featured testimonies from former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor, as well as whistleblower and former intelligence o… [Time]time.comintelligence official, testified before Congress, alleging that the U.S. government has been concealing a longstanding program focused on…
This difference is crucial when discussing credibility:
Type of claimGraves and FravorGruschPersonal observationCentral to their testimonyLimitedDirect witness statusYesUsually no regarding crash-retrieval allegationsMain subjectUAP encounters in operational settingsAlleged hidden government programmesEvidence typeEyewitness accounts, military context, some associated sensor discussionsTestimony about information received from othersMain credibility questionWhat did they see?Were the sources and underlying programmes real?
Because the pilots’ claims were first-hand, many observers viewed them as inherently stronger than Grusch’s second-hand allegations. However, first-hand testimony alone does not establish what an object actually was. A witness can credibly report seeing something unusual without proving an extraterrestrial or non-human explanation. Likewise, even if Graves and Fravor are considered sincere and reliable witnesses, that does not automatically verify Grusch’s separate claims about secret retrieval programmes. [PBS]pbs.orgPBSAnalysis: Whistleblower testimonies did not change our…29 Jul 2023 — A congressional subcommittee met on June 26, 2023, to hear tes… [Time]time.comTestimony by former Air Force Major David Grusch claimed the U.S. military has been recovering and reverse-engineering extraterrestrial m…
Why many viewers linked the witnesses together
In public discussion, the three witnesses were often treated as if they were collectively supporting a single conclusion. The structure of the hearing encouraged that perception.
Members of Congress questioned all three witnesses during the same session. News coverage frequently summarised the hearing as a major UFO hearing rather than carefully separating the categories of evidence presented by each witness. Headlines discussing Grusch’s allegations often appeared alongside summaries of Fravor’s Tic Tac account and Graves’s reporting concerns. [The Guardian]theguardian.comufo congress hearingThere will probably be more congressional hearings…Read more… [Time]time.comintelligence official, testified before Congress, alleging that the U.S. government has been concealing a longstanding program focused on…
Psychologically, this created a form of cumulative credibility. Viewers could see:
- Military pilots discussing unexplained encounters.
- A former intelligence officer alleging concealed programmes. [defensescoop.com]defensescoop.comlawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on existential threat of uapsDefenseScoopLawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on '…26 Jul 2023 — David Fravor, former Navy pilot Ryan Graves, and former…
- Congressional interest in the subject.
- Witnesses testifying under oath. [defensescoop.com]defensescoop.comlawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on existential threat of uapsDefenseScoopLawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on '…26 Jul 2023 — David Fravor, former Navy pilot Ryan Graves, and former…
To supporters, these elements appeared mutually reinforcing. The pilots seemed to provide a real-world foundation suggesting that unusual objects existed, while Grusch appeared to offer an explanation for why more information might remain hidden. Critics argued that this was largely an association effect rather than genuine corroboration. The pilots’ experiences and Grusch’s allegations addressed different questions and involved different evidence chains. [DefenseScoop]defensescoop.comlawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on existential threat of uapsDefenseScoopLawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on '…26 Jul 2023 — David Fravor, former Navy pilot Ryan Graves, and former… [Vanity Fair]vanityfair.comThe hearing featured testimonies from former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor, as well as whistleblower and former intelligence o…
The risk of borrowing credibility across different evidence types
One of the most important credibility issues raised by the hearing is the tendency to transfer trust from one witness to another.
Fravor’s account is often regarded as relatively strong within the UAP debate because it involves multiple military participants, radar reporting and a witness with extensive aviation experience. Graves is similarly viewed by supporters as a serious witness because of his military background and emphasis on operational safety rather than sensational claims. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00… Oversight Committee [CBS News]cbsnews.comCBS NewsThe story behind the "Tic Tac" UFO sighting by Navy pilots…26 Jul 2023 — A retired Navy fighter pilot testified about his expe…
The problem arises when that credibility is automatically extended to Grusch’s separate allegations.
Evidence that pilots encountered unusual objects does not by itself establish:
- The existence of recovered non-human craft.
- A long-running reverse-engineering programme.
- Possession of non-human biologics.
- A coordinated government cover-up.
Those claims require their own evidence. Even if every aspect of the Graves and Fravor accounts were accepted as accurate, Grusch’s crash-retrieval narrative would still need independent verification. This is one reason sceptical analysts repeatedly distinguish between the question of unexplained sightings and the question of hidden non-human technology. [Time]time.comintelligence official, testified before Congress, alleging that the U.S. government has been concealing a longstanding program focused on… [The Guardian]theguardian.comufo congress hearingThere will probably be more congressional hearings…Read more…
The hearing sometimes blurred that distinction in public perception. A viewer impressed by Fravor’s military record or Graves’s aviation-safety focus might become more willing to trust Grusch by association. Yet the evidential standards remain different. Credibility can be contagious in public debate, but evidence does not automatically transfer from one claim to another.
What the pilots actually contributed to Grusch’s public credibility
The strongest credibility benefit that Graves and Fravor provided was indirect rather than evidential.
[They helped establish that:]defensescoop.comlawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on existential threat of uapsDefenseScoopLawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on '…26 Jul 2023 — David Fravor, former Navy pilot Ryan Graves, and former…
- UAP reports were being discussed by experienced military personnel.
- Congress considered the topic worthy of public oversight.
- Aviation and national-security concerns existed independently of Grusch’s allegations.
- The hearing was not built entirely around a single whistleblower’s account. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00… Oversight Committee [The American Legion]legion.orgThe American Legion'UAP are in our airspace': Former military personnel warn…27 Jul 2023 — Ryan Graves, a former Navy F-18 pilot, and…
That broadened the audience willing to listen to Grusch. Instead of appearing alone as someone making extraordinary claims, he appeared alongside witnesses whose stories involved operational military experiences and flight-safety concerns. This reduced the appearance that the hearing was focused solely on extraterrestrial speculation. [Vanity Fair]vanityfair.comThe hearing featured testimonies from former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor, as well as whistleblower and former intelligence o… [Sky at Night Magazine]skyatnightmagazine.comSky at Night MagazineWhat we learned from the UFO Congress hearing1 Aug 2023 — Two of the witnesses at the hearing, David Fravor and Ryan…
However, the pilots did not provide direct evidence for Grusch’s central allegations. Their testimony strengthened the hearing’s seriousness, not the factual proof behind crash-retrieval claims. For that reason, the hearing increased Grusch’s public legitimacy as a witness while leaving the underlying evidential dispute largely unresolved. The pilots helped convince many observers that the UAP issue deserved attention. They did not demonstrate that Grusch’s most dramatic assertions were true. [house]oversight.house.govRyan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read moreHouse Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and…26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00… Oversight Committee [Time]time.comintelligence official, testified before Congress, alleging that the U.S. government has been concealing a longstanding program focused on…
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Endnotes
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Source: oversight.house.gov
Title: Ryan Graves. Executive Director Americans for Safe Aerospace Document.Read more
Link: https://oversight.house.gov/hearing/unidentified-anomalous-phenomena-implications-on-national-security-public-safety-and-government-transparency/Source snippet
House Oversight CommitteeImplications on National Security, Public Safety, and...26 Jul 2023 — Hearing Hearing Date: July 26, 2023 10:00...
Published: July 26, 2023
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Source: space.com
Title: us hiding evidence alien intelligence ufo whistleblower claims
Link: https://www.space.com/us-hiding-evidence-alien-intelligence-ufo-whistleblower-claimsSource snippet
SpaceUS hiding evidence of UFOs, alien intellligence...26 Jul 2023 — Three key witnesses testified at the hearing: Ryan Graves and Davi...
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Source: time.com
Link: https://time.com/6298958/ufos-congressional-hearing-what-to-know/Source snippet
Testimony by former Air Force Major David Grusch claimed the U.S. military has been recovering and reverse-engineering extraterrestrial m...
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Source: legion.org
Link: https://www.legion.org/information-center/news/newsletters/2023/july/uap-are-in-our-airspace-former-military-personnel-warn-congress-of-alien-objects-threatening-nationaSource snippet
The American Legion'UAP are in our airspace': Former military personnel warn...27 Jul 2023 — Ryan Graves, a former Navy F-18 pilot, and...
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Source: oversight.house.gov
Title: David Fravor Statement for House Oversight Committee
Link: https://oversight.house.gov/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/David-Fravor-Statement-for-House-Oversight-Committee.pdfSource snippet
House Oversight CommitteeDavid Fravor Statement for House Oversight Committee25 Jul 2023 — This Tic Tac Object had just traveled 60 miles...
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Source: time.com
Link: https://time.com/6298287/congress-ufo-hearing/Source snippet
intelligence official, testified before Congress, alleging that the U.S. government has been concealing a longstanding program focused on...
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Source: pbs.org
Link: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/politics/analysis-whistleblower-testimonies-did-not-change-our-basic-understanding-of-ufosSource snippet
PBSAnalysis: Whistleblower testimonies did not change our...29 Jul 2023 — A congressional subcommittee met on June 26, 2023, to hear tes...
Published: June 26, 2023
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Source: defensescoop.com
Title: lawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on existential threat of uaps
Link: https://defensescoop.com/2023/07/26/lawmakers-pledge-to-pursue-greater-transparency-on-existential-threat-of-uaps/Source snippet
DefenseScoopLawmakers pledge to pursue greater transparency on '...26 Jul 2023 — David Fravor, former Navy pilot Ryan Graves, and former...
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Source: youtube.com
Title: LIVE | Congress holds UFO hearing with retired Maj. David Grusch
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpzJnrwob1ASource snippet
House holds hearing on UFOs, government transparency | full video...
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Source: youtube.com
Title: House holds hearing on UFOs, government transparency | full video
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNgoul4vyDMSource snippet
David Grusch Opening Statement at Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena (UAP) Hearing...
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Source: vanityfair.com
Link: https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2023/07/ufo-hearing-congressSource snippet
The hearing featured testimonies from former Navy pilots Ryan Graves and David Fravor, as well as whistleblower and former intelligence o...
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Source: cbsnews.com
Link: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tic-tac-ufo-sighting-uap-video-dave-fravor-alex-dietrich-navy-fighter-pilots-house-testimony/Source snippet
CBS NewsThe story behind the "Tic Tac" UFO sighting by Navy pilots...26 Jul 2023 — A retired Navy fighter pilot testified about his expe...
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Source: skyatnightmagazine.com
Link: https://www.skyatnightmagazine.com/news/what-we-learned-from-the-ufo-congress-hearingSource snippet
Sky at Night MagazineWhat we learned from the UFO Congress hearing1 Aug 2023 — Two of the witnesses at the hearing, David Fravor and Ryan...
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Source: theguardian.com
Title: ufo [congress hearing]({{ ‘hearing/’ | relative_url }})
Link: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/29/ufo-congress-hearing-summary-aoc-gaetzSource snippet
There will probably be more congressional hearings...Read more...
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Source: theguardian.com
Title: ufo hearing congress evidence david grusch
Link: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jul/26/ufo-hearing-congress-evidence-david-gruschSource snippet
The GuardianUS conducted 'multi-decade' secret UFO program, ex-...26 Jul 2023 — Whistleblower David Grusch claims 'non-human' beings fou...
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Source: theguardian.com
Title: The Guardian He quit heading the Pentagon’s UFO office
Link: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/mar/22/ufologists-sean-kirkpatrick-pentagon-report-uapsSource snippet
Now a report of his has shaken up ufologySean Kirkpatrick, who led the Pentagon's All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office ([AARO]({{ 'aaro/' | relative_url }})) from 2022 t...
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Source: rev.com
Title: house uap whistleblower hearing
Link: https://www.rev.com/transcripts/house-uap-whistleblower-hearingSource snippet
23 Jan 2026 — House committee holds a hearing on UAPs and the need for more transparency and whistleblower protection. Read the transcrip...
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Link: https://www.rev.com/transcripts/house-hearing-on-unidentified-anomalous-phenomenaSource snippet
[House Hearing]({{ 'house-hearing/' | relative_url }}) on Unidentified Anomalous Phenomena23 Jan 2026 — We heard from former Navy Commander, David Fravor, who shared firsthand ex...
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Source: cbsnews.com
Title: ufo hearing congress uap takeaways whistleblower conference david grusch 2023
Link: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ufo-hearing-congress-uap-takeaways-whistleblower-conference-david-grusch-2023/Source snippet
UFO hearing key takeaways: What a whistleblower told...28 Jul 2023 — In addition to Grusch, the panel heard testimony from Ryan Graves...
Additional References
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Source: rv-times.com
Link: https://rv-times.com/2023/07/26/close-encounters-with-ufos-described-to-congressional-committee/Source snippet
Close encounters with UFOs described to congressional committeeRetired Navy commander David Fravor described an encounter with a “white T...
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Source: commons.wikimedia.org
Link: [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3A2023House_Oversight_and_Accountability_Hearing_on_UAP%E2%80%93Unidentified_Anomalous_Phenomena%E2%80%93Implications_on_National_Security%2C_Public_Safety%2C_and_Government_Transparency.webm](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3A2023_House_Oversight_and_Accountability_Hearing_on_UAP%E2%80%93Unidentified_Anomalous_Phenomena%E2%80%93_Implications_on_National_Security%2C_Public_Safety%2C_and_Government_Transparency.webm)Source snippet
wikimedia.orgFile:2023 House Oversight and Accountability Hearing on...It includes a testimony by the whistleblower and former member of...
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Source: spyscape.com
Link: https://spyscape.com/article/ufo-hearing-five-shocking-space-secrets-cover-up-claimsSource snippet
Five Shocking UFO Space Secrets & Cover-up ClaimsFormer US Air Force intelligence officer David Grusch testified about mysterious alien l...
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Source: theverticalspace.net
Title: 98 ryan graves asa uaps as a wake up call for airspace safety and innovation
Link: https://theverticalspace.net/episode/98-ryan-graves-asa-uaps-as-a-wake-up-call-for-airspace-safety-and-innovationSource snippet
#98 Ryan Graves, ASA: UAPs as a wake-up call for...6 Aug 2025 — Ryan Graves is a former U.S. Navy F/A-18F pilot and the first active-dut...
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Source: youtube.com
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwSkXDmV6IoSource snippet
UFO hearing: Eyewitnesses describe encounters with "non...The Witnesses on the panel today for sharing their stories on how they've enga...
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Source: youtube.com
Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=usPustgTcDUSource snippet
David Fravor Opening Statement at Unidentified Anomalous...I want to first thank you for the invitation to speak to the committee on the...
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Source: podcasts.happyscribe.com
Title: 122 david fravor ufos aliens fighter jets and aerospace engineering
Link: https://podcasts.happyscribe.com/lex-fridman-podcast-artificial-intelligence-ai/122-david-fravor-ufos-aliens-fighter-jets-and-aerospace-engineeringSource snippet
of #122 – David Fravor: UFOs, Aliens, Fighter Jets...The following is a conversation with Commander David Fraser, who was a Navy pilot f...
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Source: elitefasion.com
Link: https://elitefasion.com/uap-ufo-records/fravor-tic-tac-testimonySource snippet
The story of the 2004 Nimitz encounter as told by the Navy pilot who saw the object directly and later...
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Source: facebook.com
Title: who are the uap whistleblowers and what are they telling congress
Link: https://www.facebook.com/mashable/videos/who-are-the-uap-whistleblowers-and-what-are-they-telling-congress/721501646403055/Source snippet
On July 26, 2023, three former military officials testified before...The third military official to testify was retired major David Grus...
Published: July 26, 2023
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Source: reddit.com
Link: https://www.reddit.com/r/UFOs/comments/18q1t7w/what_happened_to_ryan_graves/Source snippet
What happened to Ryan Graves?: r/UFOsApologies if this has been rehashed. Did a search on this sub and haven’t seen anything in a few mo...
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